Cheap labor

My company, Reich Communications, hired an intern for the summer -- a nice kid going into his senior year at the University of Pittsburgh, majoring in communications.  So far, in the week he's worked for me, he's researched some media lists, did some news release rewrites and made a batch of calls to radio stations to set up phone interviews for one of my clients.

A lot of it's been what we'd call grunt work, but for Josh it's all new and part of learning how a p.r. agency works.

Although I'm not paying him, I offered to give him $25/day to cover his trainfare and lunch.

Two other companies on my floor also have interns.  One is another p.r. business; the other is a start-up online publication.  Neither are paying their interns a penny.  And their interns are often working more than 7-hour days.

Is this fair?

I know interns use this experience to get real-world background, hone their skills and have something to add to their resume.   And it's also true that it often takes more time to explain and oversee a beginner than it would take if you did it yourself.  I've probably spent a few hours already just talking with Josh, answering his questions and trying to put the tasks he's doing into the perspective of the broader picture.

But still... is it fair?

One young woman who just finished a 6-month internship for my neighbor was spending $100/week to commute from suburban New Jersey.  To be fair, my friend with the p.r. agency gave her a Mac laptop as a thank-you but if you do the math, the intern still came out on the losing end financially.

An internship is a learning experience for interns, but should those of us in business think of them simply as cheap labor? 

What do you think?

.

Comments

[Jay Ehret]

David, You pose a fair question. It depends on what kind of experience the intern receives and how much you train the intern. If you just have the intern do grunt work, then I think you should pay the intern. However, if you are going to give the intern a valuable learning experience, then I believe it is ok to have the intern work for no pay. The question to ask is, will your intern walk away with more than just experience? Or will your intern gain new knowledge and skill?

For several years, I have used marketing students from Baylor University as unpaid interns. They work for me for 13 weeks for 10 hours a week and they get credit hours. I treat these interns like an employee and they have required training they must complete. Then I have them actively participate in important projects. My current intern Jessica, has even started her own blog: jesswicker.blogspot.com

[John Whiteside]

When I had just graduated from college, I had a job interview with a PR firm in Manhattan. (I was living with my folks in a suburb that was about an hour and 15 minutes by train from the city.) The job was basically typing and organizing. The idea was clear: hire some college grabs to be the office slaves, and when a junior account exec position came up, pick one of them. The pay was a pittance; basically enough for you to share a rathole apartment with five friends in Jersey City or Brooklyn (this was BEFORE these were trendy places to live) and eat lots of ramen noodles.

Now, there were enough kids just out of college living with mom & dad in NYC burbs who could afford to take these jobs that this worked out. (I did not work there; actually, during the interview, someone at the firm said, "If you know where your next meal is coming from, you should hold out for something better.")

My point: it's the market. If there are people who want experience, and can afford to work for nothing, and there are fewer positions than people, the pay will move toward zero. Go invisible hand!

That's neither right nor wrong, it's just reality. Of course, by offering something - anything - you are, I think, doing something right. Will it give you a benefit? Well, if everybody's paying zero, and you're paying a little, and you keep doing it, you may get the reputation of being a great place to intern, and have your pick of the bright young kids. I don't know if you can put a dollar value on it, but it's got to be a good thing. Your reputation goes up as a better workplace. I could see this having some benefits that make it easier for you to get the best talent when the labor market is tight.

Given the endless research telling us that younger people have different ways of communicating than us old fogies (i.e. anybody over 35), I think that can be helpful to you also.

It's pretty hard to find a short-term benefit to looking at the interns as anything but a pool of cheap labor... but my gut says that by taking a different approach, there will be long term benefits.

[Cam Beck]

I always wondered how this all falls into labor laws -- specifically minimum wage requirements -- but it's widespread so I can't imagine it is illegal. I just wonder what the statute is.

There is a story in one of the business books I read... I suspect it is one of Jim Collins' books... but essentially it is about a guy who had to agree to work for free to get a job, who used the experience he gained to eventually start his own business and become one of the most successful entrepreneurs ever.

This is undoubtedly an outlier, but those who turn their internships into successful paying careers are not. In fact, that seems to be the norm.

If the intern brings unique value of his own and can demonstrate it so much that you're willing to pay a salary or hourly wage on spec, so be it. Pay the intern. Unless he has a deep-seated need to work for your company (for free), he can probably fetch a salary elsewhere anyway. You're just paying market price.

However, if as is very often the case, the intern has a lot of schooling but no real world experience and obviously comes to you needing to learn a lot about business, then the intern should risk his time in exchange for that knowledge and experience.

Still, it is incumbent on you (any employer of interns) to deliver value for the labor. That is, make sure you are teaching the intern something he can use in preparation for a career in your industry, and not just forcing him to make coffee and fetch bagels.

[Maureen Rogers]

David - It's a good question to ask, but if you think about the time that you're putting into working with Josh in trying to teach him about PR (and not just where the nearest bagle place is), the labor may not be that cheap! And many of today's kids look at internships (often unpaid) as an extension of their education - thus worth paying for in their eyes. If they can afford to have a summer without paid work, lucky them.

I like your offering to pay his daily costs - as John said, this could differntiate you in the market for interns. But as Cam says, you also need to provide value to the intern, which it sounds like you're doing. Another thing you might want to add to your intern's mix is having him sit in on meetings, then ask for his impressions, what he would have said if you'd asked him about X, etc. afterwards. This will help hone his skills - maybe even to the point where he can actively participate in a meeting. Just a thought.

[David Reich]

Thanks guys -- great feedback. I just asked my intern to read this, along with the comments. He said he knows of no classmate who is interning and not getting at least a travel allowance. To me, it just seems like the right thing to do.

[CK]

"I've probably spent a few hours already just talking with Josh, answering his questions and trying to put the tasks he's doing into the perspective of the broader picture."

Actually, every boss I've ever had has answered my questions and trained me--after all, it's their job to prepare me to take over theirs...so they can go higher. (or their job to set expectations and processes for me to follow)

I've never thought it was right to have "free" interns. Even ABC wanted me to work for free as an intern and I told them absolutely not for all they'd get on the skim hourly. I got the work and the weekly paychecks.

So that's my take and I'm glad it's working out so well for Josh and you--you're both lucky to have one another. And I think it's mighty good that you're paying his travel expenses ;-).

PS: Josh you have a great boss--one of the best PR pros in the business...and one of my best friends.

[Drew McLellan]

David & Josh,

Damn straight it's okay not to pay interns. We've been doing it for years. Why do I feel okay about it?

Because I know I won't hire an entry level position who hasn't done one. I know what a kid graduating from college without an internship knows (case studies about Nike) versus what a college student with an internship knows (real life applications of what they've studied).

I also know that about 1/3 of our interns ended up getting great jobs with us when they graduated. They've also gone on to work at many of the major agencies in the country, taught at the college level, started their own agency and run marketing departments.

An internship is often times the only thing that keeps you from looking just like everyone else in the resume pile come May. It is the cheapest education a student will ever get....and an incredible investment for both the intern and the professional.

David -- you're giving Josh a huge advantage. Hopefully he's smart enough to leverage for all he can, meet as many of your contacts as he can while he's with you and stay in touch. You will be a valuable resource for his entire career.

Drew

[Alan Hirsch]

I think interns should pay the company for the job in the same way they pay their universities for being able to attend the universities. Obtaining any kind of internship at a good company is an accomplishment for the new intern.

Providing a scholarship to one talented intern is worth considering, but for the majority of interns they should be required to prove their worth to the company by delivering the goods that can translate into billable hours.
It's a tradeoff that nets the company some additional billing and nets the intern some additional knowledge that will be used to help them land a full time job in the future.

After an intern's stint is completed, a company can always write them a check for services rendered to the company. But that would be after they delivered a good job and it would not be a guarantee made in advance of their hiring.

In my early years in journalism and public relations, I admit I was paid, but I should have paid the companies for what they taught me, as they gave me a lot more than what I was able to give them.

[CK]

"I think interns should pay the company for the job in the same way they pay their universities for being able to attend the universities."

Interesting take. I'm understanding that the student is paying the institution to provide 1 service--teach them...and that the money generated goes to paying those teachers a salary for providing them that service. Whereas the companies employing the intern are making money from clients/consumers.

Of course I'm also understanding that the interns are actually helping the company (whether it's grunt work to be more efficient, or research, etc.). Unless of course these biz's are just doing a kind service to give back and help today's youths--as many companies have mentoring programs.

Net net: I think we're an example. And the example is that we pay people who work for us. I'm not saying we pay them tons, but I can vouch for this--interns (being they're paying universities already) are usually pretty poor. If not downright broke and saving quarters to pay for lunch.

Great convo, thanks for making me think about it. Some convos make me change my mind...others insight me into new viewpoints. This one confirms my belief in paying interns. Guess I'm in the minority (i've been here before ;-).

[CK]

Oh, here's one more angle -- any job...any job...is to gain experience. All jobs (if you're full-time employee) or projects (if you're a consultant) are always to get more experience.

But you got paid for them.

And to many of my colleagues who have been in social media for the last 2-4 years, your first piece of client work in SM might have been billed for less as you gained "experience"...but you likely still billed for it. I certainly did.

Actually, I often push the limits of my comfort zone with clients (SM being but 1 example). It's called building new competencies. Now, I may not charge the first few clients as much as I do after I have more experience in that competency...but I absolutely bill for all work I do--be it work that I could do in my sleep or work that I'm building-up experience in.

(So sometimes even when we're well past college years, we can still sorta be like interns with new projects/jobs ;-)